How's this for promoting MEDIOCRITY???

[kirkalbers]

http://www.racelistings.com/register/ev ... asp?ID=320

What's the motivation to be any better than a Cat Three?

(and that goes for essentially all of this promoter's races)

I have a race going right in front of MY HOUSE and I can't even race in it due to the promotion of mediocrity.

I am all for giving the guys a chance to race, but where are these racers going to go once they get better???? Answer: quit or remain Cat Three, cause there are no races for you!

[ColumbusCycling]

I really hope that's some sort of typo or a Tym Tyler mess up. I've never seen Cat 1-2's race before everyone else, race less miles than the 3-4's and have a payout that is less than 1/10 of the 3-4's. Either that or he knows something we don't know.

He has seemed to be pretty lower cat oriented this year, I guess making up for some of the races that are higher cat only (Grandview). Either that or he gets a higher turnout with the lower cat racers along with a smaller prize pool, making more money for himself.

I don't mean to "diss" Team Columbus, as they're by far the most active promoter in the area, but I'm with you; I hope there's a mistake in the flyer.

[kirkalbers]

Apologies in advance, I probably spouted off earlier without much explanation.

My main concern is not necessarily with the amount of money in a Cat 3/4 race, but with the growth of the sport in general. If most of the races in an area are Cat Three and below, what incentive is there to become better? It is actually a disincentive to be good, there are few races to do if you become a Cat Two.

Back when I first began racing, every racer dreamed of becoming a Cat Two, it was a lofty distinction. There were many racers who undertook the process of training, racing, learning, sweating, etc., all to try to reach that goal. In the end, they were flat-out better people for having undertaken the journey whether they became a Cat Two or not.

But when the majority of races in a area are geared toward a lower level, there is little or no incentive to become better. The process is a downward spiral as the racing gets worse in an area, fewer and fewer will want to continue with the sport for lack of opportunity.

My proposal to all promoters is to mandate that every race offer a 1/2 or 1/2/3 race, 3/4 or 4 race, Citizens, Women, and a Junior Race. Every single race day. Period.

I'm fairly certain that Garrett Wonders was a Cat One or Two, but did his memorial race have one of those Categories?

The 1/2 race doesn't have to be an all-out PRO affair, but a showcase for the higher levels of the sport to the other categories.

Replies are welcome.

[mike]

fyi the grandview races were pro-1-2 and 3-4. Everybody but a cat 5 could race in grandview.

I don't know about Tym's motivations for not offering 1-2-3 races, but one reason could be that the turnout is tricky to predict sometimes and is often quite low around here lately. At the Zoar road race last weekend the 1-2-3 race had less than 30 guys but the 3-4 race had over 70. Also, the turnout for the tour of ohio was pretty low this year and several of the stages were cancelled because of it.

In my opinion, Cat 3 is a perfectly fine stopping place for lots of people . . . you don't have to seriously train hard all year to be fairly competetive. And there is quite a big jump in difficulty from the 3-4 to the 1-2-3 races. This doesn't excuse promoters for not offering 1-2-3 races but it might explain why the 3-4 races have huge fields and the 1-2-3 races are less well attended.

My proposed solution: Mandate offering 1-2-3 races all the time as you say Kirk, BUT make it less risky for the promoter. One thing that I don't like about the current reward system is that the payouts for 1-2-3 races are always higher than the 3-4 races. I think a more sensible system would be to base payouts on the number of people who show up at the race. It makes no sense to me to see 1-2-3 payouts be much higher than 3-4 payouts when only half the number of guys show up. I think this would make it easier for promoters to always offer a 1-2-3 race.

I'm cat 2 BTW.

[kirkalbers]

Don't get me wrong, I think Cat Three is a fine stopping point, but there are not opportunities to become better or even try.

Grandview is one weekend a year, what about the 15+ other races which Team Columbus operates?

In my opinion, there are big 3/4 fields because of the lack of opportunity for Cat Two and higher. The small fields in the 1/2/3 actually make the races tougher and hence even less motivation to try them. Ever notice it is the same guys placing in the local 3/4 races?

Make the rewards higher for being a better racer(ie higher category), not because there happens to be more riders in your field, THAT would discourage further sandbagging and have more participation for the 1/2/3 fields. No one really races for the money, but to provide a disincentive to be good would not benefit anyone.

By the way, it is against the rules to base payouts on the number of participants. If the stated minimum number don't show, the promoter options are to cancel or combine the race with another, with the prize money being carried over.

If promoters find putting up X dollars risky, then don't offer as much. No one can seriously say that they are racing for the money and almost everyone I know would rather see a reduced prize list if the entry fee were less. Heck, in Boston there is a training race every single Sunday from March to September, $11 to enter and $7 to win. No one complaining there and the race is basically 1/2/3/4 after the end of May.

As for Tour of Ohio, maybe people are finally growing weary of Tym's antics.

[mwalimu]

Kirk,

I'm just as frustrated as you are with the lack of racing opportunities for 1-2s. For a weekend warrior with a full-time job and a family, it is getting too expensive to be a 1-2 and travel to races. And I agree that current race promotion encourages cat. 3s to stay put.

However, as the co-promoter of the Garrett Wonders Crit, I'd like to clarify some things. The past two years since Garrett's death, Terri Wonders (Garrett's wife) and I debate whether including a 1-2 race will pay for itself or not. Our goal is to raise money for the Garrett Wonders Memorial Fund, which pays for cycling advocacy in South Carolina and two Ohio State Cycling Scholarships. With this goal in mind, we cannot afford to lose money on a single category (prize money v. entry fees).

So we are stuck in the double bind of not being able to offer a big enough purse to convince 1-2s to turn up for the race and not having enough local 1-2s to have a decent race.

If we had held a 1-2 race, it would have been you and some of the Savage Hill and Roadhouse guys racing for our entry fees.

The answer is event sponsorship; otherwise you are essentially racing for a prize list based on entry fees.

This year at the GW Crit, one of our sponsors Uponacottage.com stepped up and covered the women's purse. Otherwise, that category would not have payed for itself.

We beat the bushes for sponsors, but it is not easy. I'm still naive enough not to cut an advertised purse. For two years, I poured my heart and soul into the Savage Hill Stage Race. The first year, we ran into the red. The second year, we made $100. But we never cut the purse. Until a solid sponsor comes along for that event, our club can't risk losing money.

Another issue is that our regional USCF rep, Mike Hanley, is not enforcing mandatory upgrades. Some of these guys in the 3/4s should be getting a sticker in the mail, thus beefing up the 1-2 field, thus giving you and me a race to do.

Again, I'm not trying to be confrontational here; just adding the promoter's side to the debate.

-Ryan Rish
Savage Hill

[CitrusSpeed]

...

Another issue is that our regional USCF rep, Mike Hanley, is not enforcing mandatory upgrades. Some of these guys in the 3/4s should be getting a sticker in the mail, thus beefing up the 1-2 field, thus giving you and me a race to do.

This is because it appears that none of the local races report their results to the USCF so Mike probably doesn't even know who the people who should be upgrading are. I've raced a total of about 20 races over the past two years, and 1 is listed in my profile on the USCF site. Why don't they get posted to the USCF?

CitrusSpeed

[CitrusSpeed]

... Why don't they get posted to the USCF?

CitrusSpeed

I found the answer to my question...it's simply not required by the USCF so why should they? If it were required by them to submit results, there'd be better tracking by the USCF of those that were required to upgrade. It'd sure make documenting your results to upgrade a lot easier as well for those of us that plan to upgrade.

Those of you who have progressed to the 1/2's, how'd you document your qualifying points and such to the USCF or is that just a matter of "saying" you did what you did?

[kirkalbers]

I have always held the belief "you either race for money or not." In other words, who really cares about the prize list? I can certainly tell you that none of us who drove 2+ hours to the Ohio Valley Series races really cared how much prize money there was there (less than $200).

If anyone who puts on a race thinks the number of 1/2's is insufficient, combine them with the 3's and let the 4's ride with the 5's. If I were a potential sponsor of a race, even a local one, I would want the best guys in the area racing and for them to put on a good show. What I wouldn't want is a promoter deliberibately keeping out the best in the area so the lower categories could "whup on each other." Those races are better left for the undercard and as a stepping stone.

Now this is again my opinion, but I really believe "charity" races are better off beening held as road races with minimal expenses, perhaps in the spring or fall. I didn't know Mr. Wonders very well, but I would like to think he would have wanted to promote the sport as a whole so as to show others where you could go with perseverance and hard work.

By the way, cutting advertising prize lists is against the rules of USA Cycling and part the reason Mr. Tyler continues to do so is because the cheif ref is part of his "crew" which is another violation of rules.

Lastly, I will personally put up $200 for next year's Garrett Wonders race as long as it is a road race for all categories.

Regards,

Kirk Albers

[PNW Buckeye]

I am surprised that many of you have missed the obvious. Promoters throughout the country ought to consider offering more options for the Category 2 rider. Consider your rider of average "cat 2 ability". The rider who did well enough to earn their points and move up to Cat 3 but who just doesn't quite have what it takes to be competitive with the big boys. For whatever reason, either they work a full time job, family responsibilities, or their parents just did not quite have the right genetic code, this rider finds themselves nothing but pack fodder whose entry fee they may as well give directly to the Cat 1's and Pros they have to race against. This rider still loves the sport, still wants to compete but doesn't see the point in getting his assed kicked weekend after weekend. Back when I started racing, the main event of the day was Cat 2-3. You could probably count the number of Cat 1's in the US on two hands. Fortunately for the sport, this has changed and there are hundreds of competitive Professional and Category 1 riders in the US thus allowing for Pro 1-2 races. My long winded point being, promoters should consider offering races as: Pro 1-2, 2-3, 3-4 giving the riders more of an option. This would allow for an up and coming rider to compete in harder races while they continue to improve while at the same time give the working stiff Cat 2 a race to do without hearing the cat-calls of "sandbagger". With this approach I would hazzard a guess that participation would increase accross categories. Or I could be full of it.

Also, although I disagree strongly with Tym Tyler's habit of changing the prizelist and would like to see him offer more races for categories higher than Cat 3, everyone living in his area needs to remember that if it were not for Tym Tyler, there would be a lot fewer races to compete in with a lot less money to compete for. Tym loves the sport of cycling but he is a business man too. His Tour of Ohio is one of the finest multi-day events for amateur riders. He also does the small things for the riders. How many other promoters offer the chance for a Category 3 or 4 rider to step on the top step of the podium and spray the crowd with champagne just like the stars do? Few to none. Rather than slag off Tym, try telling him thanks for taking the time to put on an event that you can compete in.

Also, Team Columbus does not put on the Grandview race, Ten Speeds Productions does. Before you tire your arms out throwing rocks at Tym Tyler, remember that Grandview's promoter has had some issues himself such as starting races on time and timely payment of the prizes to the riders.

-PNW Buckeye

[kirkalbers]

I'm not missing the point. IT IS NOT ABOUT MONEY.

Tym offers me (personally) zero chances so why should I thank him? For supporting the lower half of the sport? Where's the growth? He still charges $27 for a race with a supposed $500 prize list. Why not cut the fees, open up the categories, and put on some good races rather than cutting the distance, prizes, and cancelling races with no notices. To me, it would be more beneficial to the sport to put on three or four good races rather than 15 mediocre ones. I for one would rather see him do better races or none at all. Team Columbus has alienated sponsors, venues, and racers with his productions. Why do think almost no riders ever come from Cincinnati to race in Team Columbus events?

The point I am trying to make is about developing racing for everyone. Where are Cat 3's supposed to go once they upgrade? Once again, it is not about the money, but rather the opportunity to race and learn how to race at a higher level. I wholeheartedly believe in showing the general and cycling public a higher level of racing is benefical to the sport in the long run.

Finally, I believe more clubs would be active in promoting events if a few more "available" dates were to open up on the calendar. Hard to compete when there are 20 some dates a year occupied by one promoter.

[Guest]

You've moved past this by now, but...

The Garrett Wonders Memorial Criterium is married to uptown Westerville because of the Westerville Bike Shop. There are many, many issues with the venue, but Garrett's parents and widow would like to keep the event as close to the shop as possible.

Before Ohio State Cycling experienced its recent jump in participation, the club was kept alive with the help of Westerville Bike Shop. The owner, Kurt Lehmkuhl, got Garrett (and me) started in cycling. And when you guys were all too cool to talk to us at the Fishinger ride, the shop was where we went to figure out the sport.

The city of Westerville was skeptical about allowing another cycling event in uptown because of misunderstandings with other promoters. The first year, we had to have the streets open at 11am sharp. This year, we had to have the streets open at noon. Next year, we may give a 1-2 or at least a 2-3 race a shot if we get more 'street time;' we'd also like to include masters events in the future, so guys can race twice and raise more money for the memorial fund. But with scholarships and the venue on the line, we've probably been over-cautious.

To add to the current debate: a state association run by the clubs (not the promoters) would help in running a clean calendar (w/o conflicts), working with promoters to create events that are well-run and well-attended, controlling upgrades.

A few years ago, Mike Hanley (the regional USCF rep, who knows more about what is going on than you think he does) sat down with the clubs and promoters at Dave & Busters. He was eager to lighten his load and allow for more local control. The conversation ended as soon as lunch was over.

Recently, Jeff Braumberger tried to get a state association going by providing a web site/forum for the clubs to pick up and use to administer Ohio cycling. No one bit.

Sustained leadership is what we need. I'm at a loss where we find it and how to make Columbus the hub for the state.

And Kirk, any way you can use your knowledge, experience and influence to make a positive impact on Ohio cycling will be welcomed. We'd love to get you out on one of our junior rides. Think what it would mean to a young racer.

-Ryan

[kirkalbers]

I'll address your points as you listed them.

-- I don't recall you or Garrett ever introducing yourself to me at the Fishinger Ride and if you knew me very well, you would know I was often seen at the back of those rides helping some of the weaker riders maintain contact with the ride. Now, if you are talking about the Fishinger ride in general, that's another story as I am not anyone's mother....

-- Yeah, I agree Jeff's initiative is a good one, but as long as Tym and his shady intrepretation of the rules is involved, no thanks. Did the Savage Hill Club join this coalition?

-- Were the City of Westerville reservations with a certain promoter the same one you worked with for your race this year? I will admit to not knowing any of the details. However, the three people on the corner where I watched finish had no idea there was going to be a race that day. I strongly believe that local promotion goes a long way to build goodwill in those towns.

-- During my three year stay in New England, there was a regional association and it ran almost flawlessly. If anyone is interested, I can try to find their framework of rules.

-- Tell me when and where the events for juniors are, I will be there as my schedule accomodates. Keep in mind I am at "stay at home" dad and coach as well. I'm the first to do anything I can to promote the sport of cycling, all anyone has to do is ask. (I also co-administer the website http://www.fixedgearfever.com and help administer the Jelly Belly team.)

[puck70]

You agree not to post any abusive, obscene, vulgar, slanderous, hateful, threatening, sexually-oriented or any other material that may violate any applicable laws. Doing so may lead to you being immediately and permanently banned (and your service provider being informed).

I saw this on registration. Is it slander calling a race promoter shady.

[mwalimu]

"-- I don't recall you or Garrett...."
Sorry, I didn't mean you personally; Garrett and I learned the hard way on those rides...my point is that it shouldn't have to be the only way to learn the sport. Whether you were aware of it or not, you were helpful to Garrett; he went on a few rides with you and picked your brain.


"-- Did the Savage Hill Club join this coalition?"
Savage Hill and its mission remains independent of all promoters. We have a good, working relationship with Tym, as we do with Jay Baumeister (who donated all of the race numbers for the GW crit when ours didn't show up on time) and Sam and Mike of 2Wheelsports (who helped promote our stage race). Tym donated his trailer and camera to the Garrett Wonders Crit. We have worked with Andrew and Mark independent of Tym, and have a good working relationship with them as well.


"-- Were the City of Westerville reservations..."
I don't choose to comment; our club, with the help of Kurt, has worked very hard to repair the business community's relationship with the cycling community. An ongoing process....


"I can try to find their framework of rules."
We would still need someone(s) to get and keep it going.


"Tell me when and where the events for juniors are..."
That came off bad; I didn't mean to call you out like that. Just know that you have an open invitation to help out in any way that fits your schedule. The kids will be going back to school soon, but we have a few rides left. The calendar on our website (http://www.savagehillcycling.com) lists the details for the rides.


Our club is pretty open and willing to work with anyone who is willing to help promote and develop the sport; I realize we don't always come off that way in our race reports, but we are just stumbling and bumbling along trying to make a difference and have fun in the process.


-Ryan
mailto:rrish@alltel.net